Seeing the Other: Hope for a Hospitable Church from a Black Catholic
Interview with Karianna Frey
Part One from our “Tending to the Wounds of Racism” Series
Photo by Honey Yanibel Minaya Cruz
Series Introduction
In Gaudium et Spes, the Catholic Church underlines the necessity of social justice by pointing out the basis of our call to charity as social beings: “everyone must consider his every neighbor without exception as another self.” (GS 27).
This is founded upon our belief of the dignity of the human person: “Created in the image of the one God and equally endowed with rational souls, all men have the same nature and the same origin. Redeemed by the sacrifice of Christ, all are called to participate in the same divine beatitude: all therefore enjoy an equal dignity.” (CCC 1934).
From here we can stand firmly by the words of the Church that, “Every form of social or cultural discrimination in fundamental personal rights on the grounds of sex, race, color, social conditions, language, or religion must be curbed and eradicated as incompatible with God's design.” (GS 29).
In the midst of many movements and outcries, we have interviewed Black Catholic women about their experiences of racism and their hopes for the Church and our world. Through their words and stories, we pray that you find healing, understanding, and zeal for renewing our Church and society; that through your personal choice of charity, we might call out sin, call on virtue, and truly love each of our neighbors as another self.
Interview with Karianna
Karianna is a Catholic wife, mother to four, and Classical Educator based out of Southern California. Growing up Baptist, she developed a deep love for the Lord, which grew as she learned more about the Sacraments and the Catholic Church. She enjoys sharing the story of her conversion to Catholicism, about her life as a Black Catholic woman, and how each and every person is created in the image and likeness of God with a specific role in His Church. She is the author of two books and one e-book and you can find out more about her at www.kariannafrey.com
What inspired you to pursue a relationship with Jesus Christ?
Jesus has been my Way, my Truth, and my Life since I was seven years old. I grew up in a Black Baptist Church and my aunties were instrumental in my maintaining that relationship with Jesus.
In my church growing up music, particularly Gospel Music, was a huge part of the Worship Service. The Service would start with the Gospel Choir and the congregation raising their voices in praise and glory to our Lord, and you couldn’t help but feel the Spirit. I’m sure you have guessed by now that I am a convert to Catholicism.
I was a freshman at university when I first felt a call to join the Catholic Church, and I fully converted at the Easter Vigil in 2001. My conversion was surprising to my family, however, I remember my aunt saying “As long as you love Jesus, it doesn’t matter what church you go to!”
What do you love about being Black? What do you wish others could understand about being Black?
Race and Identity is such a tricky, sticky thing, isn’t it?! When I look at my personal identity, I am Biracial, meaning I am not, and I do not feel, 100% Black and I don’t feel 100% White, and there have been times in my life when being biracial was very apparent. I remember as a kid sometimes not being “Black enough” for the Black kids and not being “White enough” for the White kids, and that is why I really try to make sure that people feel welcomed and seen.
Because I am ethnically ambiguous, people assume many things about me and are surprised when I describe myself as a Black Catholic. When I look through the lens of my faith life, I am 100% Black and it’s that piece of me that is highlighted when I describe myself as a Black Catholic. It is very similar to how someone might describe themselves as “Irish Catholic.” Because I am bringing my Blackness and my culture to Catholicism, and adding it to Catholic Orthodoxy, I am a Black Catholic.
I wish people understood that there is not just one way to be Black. Not all Black Americans have had the same experience in life but many of us have a shared history of the unknown. Americans who are of European or Asian descent, who had ancestors who made the choice to immigrate to the United States have a history. They can say without hesitation “I am Greek-American,” “I am Vietnamese-American,” “My great-grandmother came from Sweden.” They might even know exactly where their ancestors came from. I can’t say that because I don’t know. I know that my ancestors were brought to this land, as livestock, to toil and labor for hundreds of years and that’s all I really know. We can even see this disconnect in the very word “African-American.” Africa is a pretty big continent filled with different cultures and peoples. I can’t tell you what African country from which my ancestors originated because the information is lost to the annals of history. I know that my father’s family has origins in Germany, but as far as my mother’s side, I can’t know anything for certain - short of taking one of those DNA ancestry tests!
How has racism been prevalent in your life? How has it affected you and your family?
My experiences with racism have mostly been with personal relationships and being singled out as the “other.” Even as a kid, when there were forms to fill out, there was a box for everyone except me… we were relegated to “other.” When I was younger, there was a young man who expressed interest in dating, but then made it clear that “nothing could come of this” because his parents would not approve of his dating a non-white girl.
I have experienced discomfort when I’ve walked into a church with a predominantly White congregation. As a result of what I have experienced, when I walk into a new church, I tend fix my eyes on the tabernacle and just focus on Jesus because I would rather not see heads turn or see the person in the pew get up and move to a different pew (yes, this has happened. And no, the church was not so full that we were right next to each other.) These experiences have decreased since we moved to the state where we currently reside because we are a little more heterogeneous, however, there are areas of our great country where it is not easy to be the “other.”
My experiences have made it easy to have discussions within our family about how we are to behave as Christians. I am married to a White man, who grew up very different from me, and while it has been uncomfortable at times, I know that he is my forever partner who will keep learning and experiencing life alongside me. He has had discussions with his family when off-color jokes are made and has cleared up assumptions and misinformation, which is a huge step in moving toward an anti-racist world.
I fully believe that it is within our individual families where education has to occur, and as a result, we have those difficult conversations acknowledging the good and the bad in our American history. We have four children, and they run the gamut from very light-skinned to much darker, and we have made it a point to teach our kids about and celebrate all of their ethnic heritages, to have pictures of relatives around the house, to make sure they know where they came from, and at the same time, to celebrate what it means to be an American and what values are connected to that heritage.
Was there ever a noticeable shift in which racist behavior towards you increased? (Ex: around a certain age or in a new place)
I did experience more prejudicial and racist behavior when I was at university. The program of study that I pursued did not have many non-White students enrolled and people would make comments that I was only there because of affirmative action and that I was taking the spot from their friend who didn’t get into the school, basically implying that I did not earn a spot because of the work that I put in! In lecture halls, people loved to touch and play with my hair or they would flat out say “What ARE you anyway?”
The state where I grew up is pretty segregated in terms of where people live. You will find more BIPOC in the urban areas but once you get into the suburbs and rural areas, it’s pretty homogenous. Stopping in small towns was always a little stressful because I never knew what to expect, you tend to be “en garde” and hypervigilant.
What’s something you wish Catholic women knew about racism already that they may not know currently?
Racism is not monolithic, and more often it is not experienced in overt ways, but in more covert ways, through microaggressions or implicit bias. When a comment is made along the lines of “I didn’t know that Black people could be Catholic!” or “You don’t sound Black,” or “What are you, mulatto?” (all statements that I have had the pleasure of addressing), people should be aware that microaggressions are a form of racism. Just because we are not burning crosses on front lawns does not mean that we are post-racial, because we live in a fallen world and will constantly fall short of perfection as long as we are trying to exist without Jesus and without having things ordered correctly, with God at the top.
How has your faith helped you work through your experiences of racism? What advice would you give to young Catholic women of color who have been wounded by the sin of racism?
Much of my life has been filled with this feeling of not belonging, of feeling like the outsider, that I don’t have a place. One of the worst things you can say to me is “You do not belong,” and my faith is a constant reminder that I do have a place where I belong and that place is not here on Earth, but is in Heaven with Jesus.
I would advise them to remember in Whom they are rooted and that it is ok to protect your boundaries. That it is ok to say “NO” to conversations, activities, or experiences that will emotionally drain you. You do not have to validate the fact that racism still occurs by reliving your personal trauma. I would encourage them to look to the lives of the Saints, especially St. Martin de Porres, as an example of fortitude under racism and remember that racism, in all forms, is not supported by our beautiful Catholic Church nor by our God. I would also say, find a community where you can be authentically who you are. It might be online, it might be in person, but often as Women of Color, we feel the need to put on different masks in different situations. We need spaces where we can just be us with no apologies. And if you can’t find a space, girl, start one!
How do you think non-Black Catholics can help create a welcoming environment for BIPOC (Black, Indigenous, People of Color)? Do you have an experience of when you felt welcome in a community of non-black people? What did that look like?
We can start by knowing our Catholic history. We need to know and acknowledge that there was a time in Catholic Church history when someone who looks like me would not have been able to worship in the same space as White Catholics. That the Sacraments could have been withheld, that we were not allowed at the same altar rail as White Catholics. We need to face the fact that we, as American Catholics, have not upheld the values of the Catholic Church. It’s not until we admit our failings and look at ourselves with a self-critical eye that healing can begin. On a more practical note, I think hospitality is the key to everything. There is not much that food and drink and good cheer can’t solve. Reach out to people outside of your circle of comfort and really get to know them as they are. You might get a lot of rejection at first, but keep asking!
In most social situations, I am generally welcomed into groups of non-Black people. I have had the experience where things have taken a weird turn when they find out that I am biracial, and suddenly, I end up becoming the authority on all things Black American and I can’t just be me anymore. This is doubly hard because I’m not an authority on all things Black American, and I’m an introvert by nature, so being singled out in that matter makes things even more uncomfortable for me. My ideal social situations are when people welcome me and treat me like they would anyone else.
What are some first steps Catholic women can take to fight the sin of racism? What do you think is needed long term?
Catholic women, as a whole, need to assume that we do not know anything. I think by listening without prejudice and throwing out long-held assumptions, we can start to move forward. I would encourage everyone to learn more about the History of Black and non-European Catholics in the Catholic Church. We know that history can tell us so much more about our humanity and knowing the burdens that BIPOC Catholics have faced will help to shine a light on the recurring themes that we are seeing.
When examining our consciences before receiving the Sacrament of Reconciliation, we should consider looking at our actions through the lens of Catholic Social Teaching and ask ourselves how well we are upholding those values. Finally, we need to listen and to be ok being uncomfortable when presented with topics that need addressing. As American Catholics, we need to be willing to sacrifice comfort and familiarity to bring forth the world that we want to see.
What is your hope for the future of the Church?
I have so much hope for the future of the Church because we are talking right now! My hope for the future is that we take this moment in time and do something different than we have done in the past. As painful as the protests have been, we need to acknowledge that we would not be having this conversation about being Black in the Catholic Church had it not been for the protests. We would not be talking about our individual callings and how we can better serve all people in our communities, we would not be noticing who is missing from the table. My hope is in my kids and their friends, and that they are able to maintain that same level of acceptance as they grow into adulthood. I want their adult selves to be the evidence that we as Catholic families are truly living out the commandment to love your neighbor as yourself.
This interview was compiled and edited by Amelia Arth.
Recommended Reading from Karianna
Article: The History of Black Catholics in America (Smithsonian)
Book: The History of Black Catholics in the United States by Cyprian Davis
Book: Authentically Black and Truly Catholic: The rise of Black Catholicism and the Great Migration by Matthew J. Cressler
Book: Uncommon Faithfulness: The Black Catholic Experience by M. Shawn Copeland, Albert J. Raboteau, LaReine-Marie Mosely